58. Coaching, Counseling & Discipline Without Damaging Trust

[Ryan Giffen]:\nThis is the corporate shadow. I'm doctor Ryan Giffen, a people operations expert where it's my mission to help employees and bosses build stronger, meaningful, productive relationships. Welcome back to the corporate shadow podcast. Oh, my goodness. It's been a while. The last episode I recorded was back in October of twenty twenty four. Oh, since then, life work workshops with clients and about a thousand other things that could take up an hour of this podcast to fill that calendar if I were to share that with you. But I'm excited to be back because today's topic is one of the most important leadership skills that I teach. We're talking about coaching, counseling, and discipline. Now before you think, oh, great. Ryan is doing an episode about write ups and employee discipline. Just stick with me for a minute. Because this episode is actually about relationships. It's about trust. It's about accountability. And it's about how leaders can address problems without destroying morale. In my experience, most workplace conflict isn't caused by difficult employees. It's actually caused by difficult conversations that never even happened. The manager avoided the conversation. The employee never got clarity, and the issue just got worse. Frustration built, and eventually everyone finds himself in a situation that could have been solved months earlier with a simple ten minute discussion. So today, I wanna give you a practical framework for knowing when to coach, when to counsel, when to discipline, and how to do all of it while preserving dignity and strengthening workplace relationships. So let's jump right into it. One of the biggest myths in leadership is that you have to choose between being nice and being accountable. You don't. I mean, the best leaders actually do both. Think for a moment about the best boss you've ever had. Chances are they weren't soft. They probably had standards. They expected results, but they also cared about people. They listened. They were fair. They treated people with respect. Strong leadership really lives at the intersection of empathy, clarity, and accountability. You see, empathy says, I see the person. Clarity says, I name the expectation, where accountability says, I follow through. And so the problem is that many leaders get stuck on one side. Some lean heavily into accountability and control, which leads into micromanagement. People become afraid to make mistakes. Ownership disappears. Others, however, might lean heavily to the other side of the spectrum, which is empathy. They avoid difficult conversations. They keep giving second chances, sometimes third chances and fourth chances. Expectations become fuzzy and unclear, and eventually, everybody gets frustrated. And so the goal is not empathy or accountability. The goal is empathy and accountability. And that is where trust lives. So one question managers ask all the time when it relates to coaching, counseling, or discipline. How do I know what type of conversation I should be having? Or if you're an employee listening to this episode, what type of conversation might I expect? So here's a simple way to think about it. Coaching is for skill gaps. Right? Or first time issues or situations where expectations may not have been clear. That is where coaching lives. Counseling is for patterns. It's where something has happened more than once. The issue is becoming a habit and the impact is growing. Now progressive discipline, however, is for situation where support or coaching has already been provided and the behavior still isn't changing even after multiple counseling sessions. And it could also be where the issue is serious enough to require formal corrective action. And then this is where situations will arise, where we should probably stop and involve human resources or your people operations or your people and culture team, whatever the heck they decide to call HR these days, to get them involved immediately. And there those situations, right, it's not all situations, you know, as a as a as a manager, as a leader, you know, you're gonna grow over time and hopefully you'll be able to tell the difference. But I mean, immediately involve human resources when there are situations such as harassment, threats, violence, retaliation, dishonesty, serious misconduct. Right? There's all these gross misconduct situations that require a different process, and that's where you should involve HR for those more serious situations. But for most day to day leadership situations, the question is not, how do I discipline this employee? The question that should be asked is, what conversation should I have right now before this gets worse? You know, the best discipline is the discipline you never need. Alright. So here's here's a belief that I've developed, oh goodness, of over twenty years in working with leaders in multiple, disciplines and industries. The the best disciplinary process is the one you rarely have to use. And that is because great leaders or effective leaders even coach early. They don't save feedback for the annual review. They don't wait until they're frustrated. They don't try to go collect evidence for six months and then surprise, you're being disciplined in a formal, documentation process. That's not when they do it. They address small issues head on while they are still small. Let's let's put it in the context of your own life for a second. Would you rather hear, hey, can I give you some feedback on something I noticed today? Or would you rather hear something like, we need to talk about the last six months. Right? Exactly. So small conversations can prevent big problems. One of my favorite leadership principles comes from, Brene Brown. I mean, I had a lot of influences in my life, but, Brene Brown in her book, Dare to Lead Brave Work, Tough Conversations, Whole Hearts. And you'll also hear it in several of, her keynotes and YouTube videos, which I highly recommend you Google and get out there and and listen to some of Brene Brown's keynotes and her TED talks specifically, but, and go pick up a book, especially this one. Dare to lead. If you're a leadership, this is a must read. But she says this. She says when it comes to providing feedback, she says, and I quote, clear is kind, unclear is unkind, end quote. You know, many leaders believe that they're being nice when they're vague. But vague feedback isn't kind. It's actually very unkind because it's confusing to the employee. Right? So imagine your manager says to you, you need to be more professional in the workplace. Like, what the heck does that even mean? Like, what should you do differently tomorrow morning when it's that vague? I mean, nobody knows what to do with that. Instead, you need to offer clear feedback, and that clear feedback is going to answer four simple questions. And those four questions are this. One, what behavior did I observe? What impact did it have? What is the expectation going forward? And what support is available? Behavior, impact, expectation, support. I call it the buys model. Sounds kind of like pie. Pies, but this is buys model. Behavior, impact, expectation, support. And so yeah. Like I said, it sounds like pie. So that's an easy way for you to remember it. Regular pies are delicious. Buys is delicious feedback. Think about it that way. I know it's ridiculous, but if it helps you remember, I'm I'm here for it. So let's compare two examples. Let's compare two examples. The first example, let's say, you have a bad attitude. Well, that's that's criticism. That's that's not good. It's very accusatory. Defense mechanisms are gonna go up. It's not gonna do you any good when you are that vague. Here's another example. During yesterday's meeting, you interrupted two coworkers several times. As a result, the discussion became difficult to manage and team members stopped contributing. Going forward, I expect everyone to allow others to finish speaking before responding. You see in this example, now we're talking about behavior. We're not talking about personality. We're not talking about their character or assumptions. Just observable facts. You know, facts versus stories. You know, this is another leadership skill that dramatically improves difficult conversations, and that's learning the difference between facts and stories. Facts are things we can observe. Stories are conclusions we create. Let me say that one more time. Facts are things we can observe. Stories are conclusions we create. For example, fact, an employee was late three times in two weeks. Story, this employee doesn't care. We have another one. Fact, The report was submitted after the deadline. Story. They're lazy. Leaders often discipline stories instead of facts. And when leaders are disciplining the story instead of the facts, that's when defensiveness begins. Another Brene Brown concept that I hold near and dear to my heart that really changed the way in which I managed or when I have, coached other leaders in disciplinary meetings and whatnot is, kinda like these scripts that she provides in her book, Dare to Lead. And so a phrase that I love to begin with is, and this is directly from Brene Brown, is, quote, the story I'm starting to tell myself is then follow that up with, help me understand what I might be missing. You see that simple sentence creates curiosity, and curiosity is one of the most powerful tools in leadership. When you're staying curious, when you're asking questions, you're listening to understand, not listening to respond. When you're coaching someone, we need to resist the urge to immediately solve the problem. And I'm gonna tell you right now, I am going to raise my hand real high and say I am guilty as charged on this one. It is very difficult to not be a problem solver right out of the gate when, whether that's your personality or the way you've been raised or for whatever reason, but we just kinda jump into let's solve the problem. But we have to avoid that. We need to ask before we advise. And we're not perfect. This is gonna take practice, but we have to start somewhere. So when we're coaching someone, resist that urge to immediately solve the problem. Rather, ask questions first. So maybe try something like, I noticed something. Can we talk about what happened? Or you could say, what got in the way? What support would help? What am I missing? Sometimes the issue is skills. Sometimes it's priorities. It's a lack of training, or sometimes it could be a personal challenge that's happening. We all know that our personal lives bleed into the workplace and vice versa. Workplace bleeds into our personal and home lives. So sometimes something might be happening in their personal life that's affecting their productivity or their morale or their or something's happening in the workplace that might just require just a a short little conversation and a heart to heart. You know, also sometimes it's simply that expectations from leadership was never clearly communicated because it was so vague and not clear, and so therefore it was unkind. And so good leaders need to investigate before they start prescribing the solution. So let's jump into, empathy. Right? Empathy, which does not remove accountability, by the way. And empathy doesn't necessarily mean, oh, it's just, you know, be a nice person and whatever. So let's let's dive into this because I think this is probably the most important section of today's episode. If there's anything we're going to take away, it's this idea of empathy and accountability. Empathy is not the same thing as excusing one's behavior. You can understand someone's situation and yet still hold them accountable. So let's, let me come up with an example. So a manager might say something like, I understand this has been frustrating. And then they might immediately follow that up with, at the same time, the expectation still needs to be met. Right? That's that's leadership. That's leadership. The leader saying, yeah. I've been there. Right? I've been a lot of a young leader. I've been a young new manager at one point, and I know that this can be frustrating. But at the same time, there's an expectation that needs to be met. Right? That's leadership. It's not punishing. It's connecting accountability. It's supporting the person while maintaining the standard. When issues start becoming patterns when issues become patterns, that's when we need to start moving from coaching into counseling. And so a simple structure that I recommend is also gonna come from wait for it. Guess who? Guess who? Bernie Brown. And she calls this model or this acronym clear. Right? Because remember, CLEAR is kind. So CLEAR, we can break this up into an acronym where c is to clarify the concern. Listen to employees' perspective. Explain the business impact. Agree on expectations, support, and timeline. Record the conversation and follow-up. Clear. Clarify. Listen. Explain. Agree. Record. Notice something important in this model. Listening comes before explaining, and managers often skip that step. They arrive with a conclusion instead of a conversation because they have that story made up in their heads. Right? They arrive with that conclusion, and that's a problem because they haven't listened. So even when you're correcting performance, those employees and people, all of us, want to feel heard. And being heard doesn't necessarily mean they're right. It just means they are respected. They're respected. That's what people want. All of us as human beings, that's what we want. Here here's a practical formula every manager can begin using tomorrow. Or, oh, the heck with that. You can use this today. I guess it depends when you're listening to this podcast. But, here's a simple practical formula. It's it's known as the business impact statement because when you're using this, again, it is clear and it sets expectations and it it takes the, accusatory nature out of it. And so it's very simple. It goes like this. I noticed the impact is going forward, I expect. Alright. Let me say that one more time in case you're driving in rush hour traffic. Don't text and drive. I noticed the impact is going forward, I expect. And you just fill in those blanks. Right? I noticed name the observable behavior or issue. The impact is here, you would name the business impact, whether it's, labor cost is going up because of overtime because someone has to stay later to cover your shift until you got here. What is the impact to the business? Going forward, I expect fill in the blank. What is your expectation moving forward? That's it. It's simple. It's direct. It's professional. It's very clear. So let me if I was sitting, with you or we're walking outside and we're doing, the set notice how I said walk outside, by the way. I just thought of this. A lot of great counseling and discipline does not need to happen between the four walls of the fluorescent lights blaring down at you inside of a cubicle or inside someone's office and a fancy little chair with a desk in between you, which causes a barrier, which is scary enough as it is. Go for a walk. Walk to Starbucks. Take your employee outside. Go for a little walk and get that heart rate up. You know? There there's something about getting outside that kinda tears the defense mechanisms down. It's more relaxed. It's beautiful outside, etcetera. And you can literally do this by walking with them, and you will be surprised how much more relaxed and comfortable it is. You know, leadership and management, it's not a command and control anymore, folks. It's not the nineteen thirties. It's twenty twenty six. At the time of this recording, it's time to connect with people. And so we can go for a walk, and we could say something like, I noticed you arrived after your scheduled start time several times this month. You know, Billy, I mean, the the impact is that coworkers have needed to stay late to cover the shift and overtime costs are increasing. So going forward, I expect you to be ready to begin work at your scheduled time. Is that something you will commit to? That's it. That's it. Billy won't be defensive. Right? Billy will hear it. It's clear, not vague. Notice what isn't in the statement that I just said. There's no judgment. There's no character attacks. No guessing motives. Right? None of that. Just facts, impact, expectations. So let's finish up with some common traps, some common leadership mistakes that I have seen way too often. Way, way, way too often. So let me name what these are. There's several of them, and this is not not a full list, but here are a few things. Waiting too long. Waiting too long. Using labels instead of observations. Doing the employee's work instead of holding them accountable because you don't wanna go into conflict. And you won't go into conflict if you use these tools we've shared in the podcast today. Documenting emotionally. Leave the emotions out you all. We gotta be focusing on the facts, the observable behaviors. You're being too nice but unclear. And my personal favorite, holding a grudge after the conversation. Once the conversation is over, your job is to follow-up professionally, not gossip, not keep replenishing, not bring it up every week for the next year. You have to give people the opportunity to improve. Then you verify this through observation and follow through, taking them for a walk and seeing how things are going and and what tools they need to, become successful and to make sure that they can meet those expectations. That is leadership. That is leadership at its core. So as we wrap up, here is the message I really hope you remember. Most workplace discipline problems don't begin as discipline problems. They begin as coaching opportunities that leaders missed. The healthiest workplaces aren't the ones without difficult conversations. They're the ones where difficult conversations happen early, respectfully, and clearly. And so if you're a leader listening today, challenge yourself this week to do one thing. One thing. Very simple. Address one small issue before it becomes a pattern. And replace one label with an objective fact. Not a story, not something you're making up, not putting your emotion into it, just a fact. Then ask one more question before giving them advice, them being your employ. And by the way, this actually works in your personal lives too. Your friends, your spouse, etcetera. Your kids, maybe, depending how old they are. But ask one more question before giving advice. So you're gonna address one small issue before it becomes a pattern. Replace one label with an objective fact. Ask one more question before giving them advice, or you could even document one coaching conversation more effectively, kinda choose in between there. But but try it. Try something. You have to start somewhere. It doesn't have to be this big, you know, huge thing. Just start small. Because behavior plus impact plus expectation plus support equals clear feedback. That is the simple formula. And I hate math, but there you go. Behavior plus impact plus expectation plus support equals clear feedback. Clear is kind. Clear is kind. Unclear is just outright being a meanie. Clear feedback builds stronger relationships. It's gonna build a stronger team, and it's gonna build a stronger workplace culture. Thank Thank you for listening. It's so great to be back after that two year hiatus. I promise it won't be another two years before my next one. Well, this has been the corporate shadow. I am your host, doctor Ryan Giffen. Until next time, keep building better workplaces one simple conversation at a time. \n\n